Guests who think it is OK to bring extra people

[Ridleyhale]

I would like to raise a problem which we have had this year for the first time but has happened several times. We can take 4 guests and possibly add a cot but that would be tight. This year we have had people turning up from abroad with 3 children and asking for a mattress on the floor, then extra towels and then extra cutlery and plates etc etc.

I have been unable to get them to pay extra and bit my lip when I have wanted to tell them I had said no more than 4. I have given in with grace, and curses under my breath, and sorted out stuff for them. However the wear and tear on the flat has been great due to the amount of active bodies crawling/jumping over the furniture etc etc . What does anyone advise on this? The latest and current arrivals were told in at least 3 emails that the flat was unsuitable for the numbers. I get the message that they consider if they are satisfied with a tight squeeze then why should I have a problem! It makes me grumpy with people which is not the way I usually feel when meeting them for the first time. Do others find that visitors expect to make the decisions on usage themselves? (I dare n't think about the insurance risk!) The 'wear and tear' on clean carpets and stuff are all a concern.

To cap it all they blocked the toilet. My husband sorted the outside drain and all was well. He went to work on monday morning and by then we had received another note saying that it was blocked again. I sent a text at midnight on sunday to our plumber who came out early monday morning-guess what? There was no problem! I paid the call out charge of £30. On retunring they called in to talk about the problem and I had to lift the manhole cover to prove to them that there was no problem!

Is this year a one off for us, a sign of the times, or have I just got the greedy folks who understand english only when they choose to?

[Number 678 Guest House]

We have had this very same problem. We received a booking confirmation from Visit britain: 1 person x 1 night. As it happens we allocated a double room on a single occupancy basis although the room rate was the same for one or two occupants. Nevertheless, the booking confirmation was definitely for one person x one night. When he arrived there was also mum, 3 yearold and 8 month old. I was quite taken aback as our rooms are definitely only big enough for double occupancy which I pointed out in my most polite manner. Despite this, the couple said that they brought a travel cot (!!) and the eldest child could share their bed. They'd obviously done this before!! Also, they fully expected the children to be fed at breakfast free of charge; they allowed the eldest child to run riot around our guest house kicking on doors, and they left the breakfast room in a disgrace with food all over the floor etc. They were horrible made even worse by the fact we felt hijacked.

Our dilemma by refusing the accommodation we were in effect putting them out on the street having travelled for many hours; leaving ourselves open for bad feedback as inhospitable and yet I'm sure that our insurance policy wouldn't cover us for four people in one room.

I feel we shouldn't have felt under pressure to accommodate this family when they had definitely not given complete and truthful information.

Any comments on the best way to deal with this situation???

[carol burdon]

hello
i have a similar problem, i have guests who think its ok to bring their own guests into my home without asking if this is ok, i would be interested to know how others deal with this problem. I hear you talking of insurance well it is also a fire risk, as i do not know who is in the house.

[Martin]

If we could accommodate them in a fashion and level of comfort that we are comfortable with, then we would do so, albeit at a revised price.

I very clearly put them on the back foot immediately by explaining that they haven't booked the appropriate accommodation and therefore they have breached any form of contract that may have existed.

We have yet to turn away people who have booked some form of accommodation with us at the door, but I would have no hesitation in doing so, albeit I would assist them in finding more appropriate accommodation, which I suspect comes at a rather higher price at a chain hotel.

Whether they would learn anything from this, I have no idea.

Cheers,

Martin.

[Sue: White Horse Walking Holidays]

I would have offered them a further bedroom if one was available and would have quoted a price for it and for breakfast. I wouldn't want to put anyone out on the street, but have to question the attitude of a family who are clearly out to rip you off. I'd have been concerned that their attitude would likely have extended to breakfast time and to a general lack of respect for my property.

There's a Travelodge at the end of my road, I'd have advised them to go there.

[Sonja Gregory]

We have had similar problems with guests inviting guests to join them at our holiday cottage www.thehytte.com We have a hot tub and sauna which is a great attraction but has been abused in the past, we had one family who invited 14 members of of there family over during the week and even complained that they could'nt get the towels dried! The only time we have had damage or the place left less than clean and the hot tub turned into a comunal bath is when we have loads of people visiting. We had another party of eight who wanted to invite 35 of their sons wedding guests over 42 in total!
We now ask for the names of all guests who will be staying at the Hytte numbered 1-8 on the booking form which clearly states that the total number must not exceed 8 plus baby in the cot. also that the Hytte is not to be used for parties or large gatherings of people except those listed on the booking form.
We remind our guests that we are a sustainable business and strive to minimise the environmental impact of their stay, Guests who wish to have family and friends over to use the hot tub and sauna are charged £5.00 per adult and £2.50 per child as payback donation which is donated to the Gteart North Air Ambulance, Gilsland red squirel action group and NNPA environment schemes.
Visitors are strictly by arrangement only. If more than eight guests are found to be at the Hytte (in contravention of agreed booking conditions) the whole party will be politely asked to leave.
We do not charge guests who are inviting a few people over for tea etc only if they use the hot tub etc, This has worked really well guests know where they stand before booking, we have solved a problem and have been able to donate money to local and environmental charities.

[Angela Lakin-Ward]

I would like to raise a problem which we have had this year for the first time but has happened several times. We can take 4 guests and possibly add a cot but that would be tight. This year we have had people turning up from abroad with 3 children and asking for a mattress on the floor, then extra towels and then extra cutlery and plates etc etc.

I have been unable to get them to pay extra and bit my lip when I have wanted to tell them I had said no more than 4. I have given in with grace, and curses under my breath, and sorted out stuff for them. However the wear and tear on the flat has been great due to the amount of active bodies crawling/jumping over the furniture etc etc . What does anyone advise on this? The latest and current arrivals were told in at least 3 emails that the flat was unsuitable for the numbers. I get the message that they consider if they are satisfied with a tight squeeze then why should I have a problem! It makes me grumpy with people which is not the way I usually feel when meeting them for the first time. Do others find that visitors expect to make the decisions on usage themselves? (I dare n't think about the insurance risk!) The 'wear and tear' on clean carpets and stuff are all a concern.

To cap it all they blocked the toilet. My husband sorted the outside drain and all was well. He went to work on monday morning and by then we had received another note saying that it was blocked again. I sent a text at midnight on sunday to our plumber who came out early monday morning-guess what? There was no problem! I paid the call out charge of £30. On retunring they called in to talk about the problem and I had to lift the manhole cover to prove to them that there was no problem!

Is this year a one off for us, a sign of the times, or have I just got the greedy folks who understand english only when they choose to?

Remember we are running a business not a charity , so i say charge them .....if they dont want to pay they have the option of staying elsewhere . I mean you can understand someone bringing a babe in arms but anything else they are taking the !

[joyful]

You need to know who is on your property for insurance purposes so that should stop it instantly.

[Schofields]

There was a similar scenario that was recently published in the times. The renter invited a friend and infant to stay over as there was room, but when the cottage owner found out they terminated a rental. The decision seemed harsh on the face of it.

I think it’s the owners decision on what course to take. Having concrete terms in booking contracts that allow owners to terminate a booking due to over occupancy is essential. Especially if renters have deliberately deceived the owner.

On the flip side, having a word of warning and making an additional charge for wear and tear may also be a better solution. It all depends on the situation.

[Jules]

Hi, it's important you state clearly in your booking conditions the maximum number of guests you will permit and that if that is found to be contravened, the booking will be terminated immediately. I ask for the full names (and ages for under 16's) of everyone who will be staying at the property and the booking form is tailored to the cottage so there is the relevant number of input boxes for the maximum people who can stay. The booking conditions state clearly that only the persons listed on the booking form are permitted to stay. Here's our Booking Conditions. (http://www.coquetcottages.co.uk/booking-conditions.htm)

I have personally never had a problem in this respect, but have heard of many who have and of course in self catering, you generally only find out about it after the event!

I often verbally and in writing, remind guests to make sure they've read our booking conditions and have no hesitation in actually saying that, as it's as much for their own good! I always ensure they have received an actual copy of our booking conditions too, which is important in relation to on-line booking, where it's all too easy for people to just click on a tick box to say they've read them when they probably haven't!

Coquet Cottages (http://www.coquetcottages.co.uk/main.htm)

[Martin_Sach_CE_EASCO]

EASCO is working on a project to provide members with a set of standard terms and conditions and we have been looking at this issue. You're within your rights to refuse unexpected "guests" or to charge extra. There is a dilema in that you don't want to prevent people in a cottage from inviting Grandma to tea, if she lives locally, but you don't want a crowd sleeping on the floor. We are drafting the standard terms to require permission from the owner for overnight stays.

[greenbarncottages]

Martin, that is excellent news.
For those of us in self-catering the whole area of T&C's is a complete minefield. The topic has been discussed at length on other fora, and crops up whenever guests cancel a booking, ask for a refund because the heating broke down, couldn't get to the cottage because of localised flooding - you name it.

There is nothing that anyone can find where the wording has actually been scrutinised and endorsed by a legal professional, and would be accepted under UCTA.
I, and I'm sure many others, look forward to EASCO producing a valid contract for use by self-catering owners.

[Schofields]

That should be helpful Martin.

It would be valuable to get some feedback from legal experts on issues such as do contracts have to be signed by renters etc?

[Moderator]

Information on Booking Terms and Conditions can be found in the Bookings Section (http://www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk/legis.aspx?title=Bookings) of this website. You will also find a sample terms and conditions template within the section.

[greenbarncottages]

Information on Booking Terms and Conditions can be found in the Bookings Section of this website. You will also find a sample terms and conditions template within the section.


The information is useful, but the following disclaimer is pertinent.

Please note that this standard template is for advice only – his does not constitute legal advice. Booking terms and conditions are a complex area of law – we would recommend you seek legal advice before publishing your terms and conditions of booking

The essential point about any Terms and Conditions, or anything that forms part of a contract, is whether or not in engages UCTA (the Unfair Contract Terms Act). If a statement within the contract engages UCTA, then that statement is unenforceable. This is particularly relevant when it comes to such areas as limitation of liability.

The disclaimer with the sample T&C's suggests that it has not been tested against UCTA, and although the content might seem reasonable, the law doesn't always embrace reason!

From experiences I've read about elsewhere, there is a desperate need for a legally proven and binding contract. The cost of legal advice for one individual to have their own contract legally validated is prohibitive, and hopefully as an organisation EASCO will be able to produce something watertight, at least for its members. Obviously if it still comes with the same caveats regarding not being legal advice, it won't really offer anything beyond the VB sample terms, which are at least a good startpoint.

[joyful]

I have just read the following in the cancellation section in the template for Terms & Conditions for bookings as mentioned by the Moderator:

"Cancellation and Insurance
By making your booking, our agreement is a legal contract and your deposit is non-refundable. If you cannot take your holiday and the booking cannot be re-let, you are still liable to pay for the booking in full, even if we have not yet received your balance.

If we do succeed in re-letting the booking, you are no longer liable for the balance, or we will refund it to you if you have already paid it, less a [inset percentage figure here] administration fee.

Please note that your deposit is not refundable under any circumstances. We would recommend that you take out cancellation insurance to cover this cost. "


I have always refunded the deposit if I get a relet less an admin fee of £10. If property not relet 48 hours before arrival (on B&B) I say they are liable for the full amount. Quite whether one would manage to get the full amount or the last bit which says your deposit is not refundable under any circumstances (and you did let the room out surely you should refund their deposit?) with out an almighty war breaking out I can't imagine.

Anyone had any deposit fracas to report whilst trying to hold visitors (B&B or Self Catering) to the full balance if property/room not relet for the full period booked when just the deposit has been paid but property not relet? I should imagine it ended in fisti-cuffs!!!

[Happy Guests]

I am not sure that we can feel protected by any terms & conditions - how will you enforce them?

We enforced an early departure at our last hotel by refusing a refund - which was set out clearly in our T&C. Well we kept the £50, but our business was damaged by many hundreds of pounds by an avalanche of lies and business slurs undertaken over the internet by the Guest, using Trip Advisor and other sites even though we could prove they were lies we couldnt get them removed and on many sites you do not even have the right of reply - such as Laterooms and Booking.com something that even convicted terrorists get.

So dont get too concerned about your T&C as the ultimate power now resides with our Guests - they call the shots and can at a flick of the mouse ride roughshot over your carefully worded T&C.

[Simon]

It's an issue that is close to my heart. I apply a strict set of booking terms and conditions which are available in full on my website and have to be accepted to complete an online booking and are emailed to any guests as soon as they book and I ask them to sign on paper to accept them on booking (in advance of arrival). There are no excuses for not reading them!

I am very clear that there are absolutely no refunds in any circumstances with one exception which is for a cancellation that is subsequently relet. And in those circumstances the 30% deposit is forfeit (which can be hundreds for a peak season week), and if I relet at a lower rate then the difference is also forfeit - why should I be out of pocket for a last minute cancellation who didn't bother taking out insurance?

Key for the business to underpinning my terms and conditions is that I will not accept any booking without credit card details provided as security (and usually for payment too). Accepting card payments is critical to the business for ease of booking and protection reasons.

The requirement for legal verification and UCTA checks of T&C is largely a red herring as the vast majority of guests will never challenge you even if they feel aggrieved.

The Coquet T&C linked above are also a good model for self-catering.

I have had guests book a cottage for a week in August and then cancel a week later as they found somewhere else. Meantime I have marked it as booked on my website and may have lost other bookings. They lost their deposit of several hundred pounds. They entered into a contract on making the booking and my terms are very clear.

I am going to start charging £10 per day per guest for visitors who use the facilites (swimming pool etc) as this is now being abused. It is easier to levy a charge than to try and prevent it and if it is in the T&C the charge is easily enforced.

The tripadvisor problem is more serious. In my experience, most of my reviews are positive and the only negative ones have come from people who appear to have other "issues". You can spot the ones who are going to complain as they are unhappy on arrival and haven't come on holiday to have a "holiday". I wish I could spot them when they booked and turn them away! I have also found that a management response can have a very positive impact on bookings.

For reference I run a self-catering cottage complex of 8 cottages in Cornwall.

[Dartmoor B&B]

I'm afraid if people turn up with others that they have not mentioned and we really cannot fit them into the room then we turn them away. I don't really know why people don't just mention the fact they have a baby/elderly aunt/annoying teenager and get the accommodation that suits them. It is not a nice thing to do but as a previous correspondent says - we are not running a charity !