Performance Rights Society

[Darius Mehta]

I understand that this association is getting more aggressive on asking people to pay for licences for TVs/Radios in bedrooms. I always understood that PRS licences were required for public rooms but it seems that if a B&B hasn't got a public room they can still be caught for the guest rooms as they are now considered public by some obscure European Court Ruling. Has anyone got some knowledge about this and is there any campaign to sort this ridiculous situation out?

[Raincliffe1]

I think there is a thread related to this subject somewhere else on this forum. I'm sure I read recently that the charge for PRS has been reduced, £44.00 a year, I think (we pay £100 approx at the moment). I have been told that (b them) they have a database of businesses in every area so I guess they could certainly demand payment from any business if they think they are playing music. We have been consistently told by them that it also includes guest rooms because there is music played on the televisions and radio/alarms. If anyone has an update though, feel free to comment.

Katherine

[Bill Higgins]

](*,)

I too have been harried by the PRS but I have only one self-catering cottage. I've tried to get advice and have been in touch with my MP about it. To date I have had an unfavourable and unhelpful reply from the Minister in question (the Rt. Hon. David Lammy with a brief for Higher Education and Intellectual Property). He advises me to contact my trade association (whatever that is!).

The crux of the matter seems to be the definition of 'public performance' and 'domestic environment' in the context of a business. The British Hospitality Association are currently in dispute with the PRS over their insistence of a licence for hotel rooms, so watch that space.

This has wider implications for anyone with rented accommodation and I would advise anyone in my position to lobby their MP.

Bill

[Martin_Sach_CE_EASCO]

Your trade association, if you are in England, is EASCO, the English Association of Self Catering Operators (www.englishselfcatering.co.uk). here are equivalents in Wales scotland and Northern Ireland. Our advice is not to respond to this, we don't believe a PRS licence is necessary for private accommodation. It is needed if you show any TV, play music, radio etc in a public area like a reception, breakfast room, games room etc. We all know that the PRS can be aggressive, and we should remember the rights of musicians and pay up where appropriate, but not for listening in private.

[Town guest house]

PRS is not a charity!
Not all musicians living or dead, currently in music the business or not get a share of the money that PRS raises. Much of it is absorbed by the PRS organisation itself.
One day someone with pockets deeper than mine will challenge them as to how a rarely switched on TV in a guests' lounge - to which the public does not have access - is either 'using music in my business' or a 'public performance'.

[helaldo]

I've just purchased our license and was told that we require a license for each TV in a guest bedroom - because of music played in adverts and TV programmes - and in the guest lounge. I imagine they will eventually track all non-payers if they obtain lists of licensed TVs from TV licensing. There are many reductions for small businesses however, we have 8 bedrooms, a guest lounge and radio in the breakfast room and it cost £125

[ALEXA-HOUSE]

You only need a PRS for 'Public' areas, as rooms are rented by guests these are 'Private' rooms.
TVs do not need a PRS According to their Terms and Conditions, Clause 2 (2) states ''the following catoegories of Performance of the Music are or may depending on the context be excluded from the licence - Performances of music accompanied by words other those normally associated with the music''

[Staying Cool]

We (Staying Cool) are currently in dispute with the PRS over the playing of music in our serviced apartments. We have properties in Birmingham and Manchester and were originally presented with a back-dated bill of over £6000. This has now reduced down to just under £3000 but

a) we are being asked to pay retrospective fees for the past four years of trading
b) we do not have any public areas, just self-catering apartments which are let from anything between 1 night and 12 months and I cannot see any real difference between what goes on in a standard short-term tenancy agreement apartment and our own
c) where all our apartments are neatly in one building (Birmingham) we are being asked for one fee per building (£250) whereas when they are in different buildings (Manchester) we are being asked to purchase one per property which essentially means we are being charged more than a large hotel chain!

Does anyone have any contacts with the British Hospitality Industry to get the latest news on their campaign or indeed any other organisations that are either campaigning against it or challenging its legality?

Thanks
Tracey

[David]

As I understand it - the PRS have won the case and the Hospitality Bodies have backed down because they can't afford to fight it in court. Essentially it seems that the PRS couldn't prove accommodation providers played music, but they can show we all have a TV in the room, so that's the avenue they have gone down to force us to pay their fees.
Is there a way out? Not as far as I can see but .......
It's been reported that the PRS give money to the likes of Gary Glitter, Johnathan King and so on - why don't we tell the public.
Lets see how they like that.

[Fern_Cottage]

I was called by the PRS a few weeks ago, they said roughly the same as what David said - that the PRS and the British Hospitality Association (whoever they are?) have 'come to an agreement'. We are being asked to stump up the £50 for our 2 bedrooms TV's. I said I would look into this & get back.

I've had quite a look across the internet and the only mention I can see of this is with regard to hotels, B&B's are a different legal entity aren't they? Can anyone confirm this?

I've not been called again by the PRS, but I am expecting another call, maybe I should just take out the TV's ...

[Der Alte Fritz]

The BHA does not really represent B&Bs as the main trade body for our industry is the Bed and Breakfast Association (www.bandbassociation.org)which is far cheaper to join and a lot more relevant. So the fact that the PRS has reached agreement with them is not really relevant. I have asked the B&B Assoc for their view and will post it when I get it.

Remember also that the aggressive, loud and pushy PRS (whose pushy call centre has already received one warning) is not the only organisation that can license you to play music. The PPL can also issue a license as outlined here:

www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/Playing-Music-and-Videos-In-Public/Hotels--Holiday-Parks/ and at a flat fee of £48 for up to £25 bedrooms represents far better value for money and they are nice people to do business with.

So do not be bullied by the PRS, get yourself a PPL license and tell them to get lost.

For what it is worth the BHA Press Release says:

British Hospitality Association and PRS for Music
reach agreement over music played in hotel bedrooms


20 November 2009: The British Hospitality Association (BHA) and PRS for Music have
announced that they have reached an agreement over music played in hotel bedrooms,
ending a long running dispute.

The BHA, the national trade association for hotels, restaurants and caterers, has agreed to
advise their members to pay licence fees going forward for music played in hotel bedrooms,
via TV, radio or any other device. A settlement has also been reached with respect to licence
fees disputed in previous years.

PRS for Music, the organisation representing songwriters, composers and music publishers,
had been in discussion with the BHA for many years about whether music played in a hotel
bedroom is a public performance requiring a licence from the copyright owners (represented
by PRS for Music).

The agreement follows several months of discussions and a European Court of Justice opinion
confirming that certain uses of music in hotel bedrooms do require a licence from the copyright
holders of that music.

Debbie Mulloy, Commercial Director for PRS for Music’s public performance team, said: ‘We
are delighted that we have been able to work with the BHA to reach a settlement. The
provision of TVs and radios in hotel bedrooms is a clear benefit to hotels and their guests, and
it’s good news that our members will now receive royalties for the use of their work.’

Bob Cotton, Chief Executive of the British Hospitality Association, said: “It is good news that
the hospitality industry will now have certainty about licences from PRS for Music for music in
hotel bedrooms. This has been a very long standing dispute, but I am pleased it has been
settled at last.”

Licences for music in hotel bedrooms start from just £44 plus VAT per year, for 15 bedrooms.

[Martin]

After reading several threads on the internet, we decided to adopt their own tactics. As soon as they say they are from the PRS, we stop them and ask if they are recording the call. They say yes. We reply that we charge £X for the recording of our voices, and £Y each time they are replayed. We then ask if they agree to that charge. They say no, and we terminate the call, politely but firmly. We last spoke to them probably 9 months ago, and presume they are fighting easier battles.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Here is the reply form the B&B Association:

1) Yes I am afraid the BHA reached that conclusion after lengthy legal dispute and advice from their legal team. The B&B Association will monitor the situation, and focus lobbying meanwhile on pushing for a lower entry point for small B&Bs rather than the 15-room "minimum" currently.

2) Again, yes, I am afraid so - silly as it seems! PPL's FAQs are here, which explain the legalities:
http://www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/Playing-Music-and-Videos-In-Public/FAQs-and-basic-operating-terms/

the direct answer is in this FAQ/answer:
I have a PRS for Music licence, why do I need a PPL one?

There are two separate copyrights in a sound recording and a licence is required for each one:

The copyright in the lyrics and composition are owned by the author and music publisher and this is administered by PRS for Music.
The copyright in the performance and sound recording are owned by the performers and record company and administered by PPL.
As PRS for Music and PPL operate for different rights owners they have always remained as separate companies.

So in short, for TVs in bedrooms, we are legally required to have (besides a TV licence) a PRS and a PPL licence!

[Fern_Cottage]

Thanks for your replies & apols for the delay coming back. I like Martin's tact! I think I might copy his idea, that's if he doesn't charge me for using his idea! Either that or I'll inform them I've removed the TV's from guest rooms - I doubt they have the powers to come in & check?

Many thanks

[Martin]

As the BHA have reached agreement with the PRS, this issue was weighing on my other halfs mind, so we recently paid up.

She still wholeheartedly disagrees with having to pay in addition to the radio stations, but prefers to be squeaky clean.

Cheers,

Martin.

[The_Sanctuary]

Thanks for all the comments so far. If I understand it correctly, there do seem to be two points of distinction:
1) The difference between Hotels open to the public (re the BHA) and B&Bs who might not be open to the public (re the B&B Association)
2) For B&Bs, the difference between being public or private seems to depend on how you do business. If you have a sign outside or on the road advertising your B&B, you are open to passing trade and therefore the public (likewise if you have a brown roadsign pointing in your direction). Otherwise, you can be a private B&B with no rooms open to the public.

So - if you are a private B&B, do you need these PRS licenses?

[mrrichardbrittan]

The only way PRS can demand payment if you have a TV Hotel licence, is by proving that individual bedrooms are ‘PUBLIC PLACES’.

Apparently in a previous blog it was stated that a Court had decided that this was so. This is not law but is known as a stated case if I have my terminology right. Until Parliament legislates otherwise it can be contested.

Public Places are legislated for in various forms of law as passed by Parliament but I am not aware that a Hotel Bedroom is included in any of them.

I have no qualms with the copyright act and indeed the artists are entitled to be paid for their work. The broadcast companies pay millions of pounds for the right to broadcast these artists and I am against the PRS changing common sense, in order to obtain more money by stating that the room is a public place.

Most guests are on holiday and away from their normal residence for which they pay a TV licence fee. That can cover them whilst they are away in certain circumstances. We then pay a Hotel Licence in case it doesn’t. So again between the guest and the hotel we maybe paying twice for the same service.

As far as the room being a Public Place, it can never be. The guest has the key and no one else apart from owners/staff has any right of entry. A Public Place would mean any guest could enter that room and not be classed as a trespasser, steal items and not be charged with burglary. Staff entering the room to clean, thinking the room was empty and seeing a guest naked could get the guest arrested if they were offended. This can never be. Offences under the Public Order act as well as various others would all come into play.
Is a house or room rented by someone on a short term lease a Public Place?

There is more chance of a Public Performance by a member of the public in his/her rental car driving down the road with the windows open and the radio on. Is the car a Public Place?. Is it a Public Performance?. Do they need a PRS licence.

I do not have music in my public areas because of this problem, but my guests do not give a public performance when they put the TV on and I have no control over what they are watching or listening too in their own room.

I know we all have different views about this, even the licensing authorities it would appear but I do think we need to get together and do something constructive for our industry.

[greenbarncottages]

I know we all have different views about this, even the licensing authorities it would appear but I do think we need to get together and do something constructive for our industry.

HEAR HEAR!! The Big Question is - who's going to do it?

We're in the self-catering holiday let business, with three units on site. It is unclear, even from the latest update from VB, whether a PRS and PPL licence are required to cover the fact that there is a TV in each unit. It is unclear whether said licences are required because there is a DVD/CD player.

What IS clear is that if we choose to put a DVD into each unit, then a DVD Concierge licence IS required. Why? Because the weasel words basically define anywhere that isn't your own home as a public place.

So a holiday cottage, occupied exclusively by a group of friends or family who are regarding the property as their temporary home, is regarded as a public place for the purposes of DVD copyright licensing - and by extension, it seems likely that the same would apply for PRS & PPL licences.

This defies common sense, it is plainly and unquestionably bonkers. It is a weasel definition of "Public Place", and the nonsense is well illustrated by mrrichardbrittan's common sense arguments above.

The law surrounding copyright, whether it be for PRS, PPL or DVD, needs bringing in to line with common sense; it relies on a definition of what is NOT a public place (your home and, er, nothing else really), and enables the mercenaries to justify their demands accordingly.

When is VB going to head the campaign to have sensible definitions - in line with common sense - brought into play? A holiday cottage is not a public place. A hotel bedroom is not a public place. The reception area and bar in a hotel is a public place. Is that so difficult to understand?

[Andrew Clay]

The whole licensing area is of course a nonsense and will ultimately be defeated by technology. Visitors can bring their iPods and listen to music in their self-catering accommodation; watch TV and listen to radio on their laptops. It would be impossible to stop visitors doing this. What is the difference so far as the licensing authority is concerned if the operator provides the radio or the visitor bring it themselves? Even the Apple TV is now easily transportable and you can bring these things with you without too much hassle. We even found that one guest brought their own TV!

[Windy]

Ridiculous though it may sound you probably technically need a PRS licence if yourguest listens to his oen pod on your premises.

I agree that its high time that Visit Britain did something proactive and positive in this badly legislated area. So VB - what IS your response to our requests?

[Moderator]

The PRS licence rules have changed, in some small part due to VisitEngland’s interventions on behalf of the smaller accommodation businesses. Please visit this link (http://www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk/legislation-guidance/premises/licences#Do_I_need_a_licence)for further details.

[greenbarncottages]

The PRS licence rules have changed, in some small part due to VisitEngland’s interventions on behalf of the smaller accommodation businesses. Please visit this link (http://www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk/legislation-guidance/premises/licences#Do_I_need_a_licence)for further details.


I think most of us were aware of the change, FWIW. It's not exactly the sort of concession to receive thunderous applause from the rooftops, is it?

BUT

Here's an interesting thought: the concession is "If you operate only one self-catering property and that property has less than 4 guest bedrooms."
So the PRS accept that such a property, if it's the only one you have, is not a public place for their purposes. But if you have two one bedroomed properties, they must be public places, because you need a PRS licence.

So what IS a Public Place?

And that is the definition that is required to clear up all the mess surrounding PRS, PPL, various flavours of DVD licensing etc etc. As has been seen is this thread, common sense suggests what is and is not a public place.

And it's VB we look to to get the common sense definition accepted.

Then you'll have given us something to cheer about.

[Der Alte Fritz]

My main complaint is not about paying for copyright.

I spent 25 years working in publishing where copyright was our life blood and state sponsored copy right infringement was common. (eg China in the 1990s who set up factories of photocopiers to copy Western academic journal output rather than paying for them.)

My complaint is about the aggressive behaviour of the PRS call centre. They do not try to assess your property correctly they just try to push up the invoice. I had one PRS operative who claimed that I needed an extra license because guests in the living room could potentially hear a TV playing in one of the guest bedrooms!!!!!! Talking to many local accommodation providers it seems to me that many are paying over the odds to the PRS.

[Windy]

I'd agree with Greenbarn.

We look to VB to be vocal and active on our behalf. If you are not going to fight bettles on our behalf then I am not going to carry on paying an annual sub to you. These battles include ensuring that we are not victims of ludicrous logic like that seen above.

It does seem to me as though VE are far too easily satisfied here with a very limited and illogical concession.

I for one do NOT regard this as any sort of victory on our behalf. A successful intervention would get a sensible and logical result regarding this and the other associated issued (DVD concierge etc). This "intervention" simply resulted in an illogical "concession" that still penalises multi-unit operators. So, VE please do try again.

It would be great to be able to thank you for achieving something for us but I can't do that yet.

[Andrew Clay]

Indeed I'd agree with Windy.
I can see no reason why you can have 2 identical self-catering properties next door to each other and one has to pay for a license (because they own another holiday property in maybe in different part of the country) and the other one doesn't.

It's not reasonable and it's not even fair (as it's not based on how profitable the business is)

[Windy]

...and as regards the "public place" aspect, a self-catering property is clearly NOT a public place or we would not be allowed to permit smoking

"The law does not require self-contained residential accommodation for temporary or holiday use (for example, holiday cottages or caravans) to be smokefree. The owners, however, may choose to make the accommodation smokefree."

Whu not? Because our properties are clearly NOT public places. Doh!

Now VB please digest that and get your trusty sword out again and fight our corner a bit harder with the PRS please.

[VisitEngland_Feedback_]

Hotel rooms and self-catering cottages are treated the same under smoking legislation. A hotel can deem rooms to be smoking rooms and a self-catering operator can deem a cottage to be a smoking cottage.

It should be noted that different pieces of law can define the same thing in different ways. So trying to apply the definition of something under one piece of legislation to another piece of legislation is not recommended.

PRS licensing is different, more can be found here: http://www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk/legislation-guidance/premises/licences#Performing_Right_Society_licences

[greenbarncottages]

PRS licensing is different, more can be found here: http://www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk/legislation-guidance/premises/licences#Performing_Right_Society_licences

And so we go full circle.

I think we reasonably can believe that everyone who has contributed to this thread has read the information on the legislation in the link given.

I think we reasonably can believe that everyone who has contributed to this thread thinks that the legislation, in particular WRT to the definition of a "Public Place", is palpable nonsense.

I think we reasonably can believe that Visit England should be campaigning for a realistic, common sense definition of "Public Place", and should continue to do so on the behalf of all of us who are the victims of bully-boy tactics by the likes of the PRS, Filmbank et al.

I think we reasonably can believe that Visit England don't give a monkey's.

[Windy]

"I think we reasonably can believe that Visit England don't give a monkey's."

Harsh but fair. VE in it's present incarnation is a toothless tiger if ever there was one. I've now joined EASCO as they seem a bit more tuned in to the needs of small self-catering operators and more ready to fight our corner.

[Tourism_Alliance]

VisitEngland is a Government funded organisation and, as such, is prevented by statute from undertaking lobbying activity, it is the role of Trade Associations rather than VisitBritain/VisitEngland to lobby the Government for changes in regulation and businesses should ensure that they are members of their Association if they want to effect change. VisitEngland, however, provide “behind the scenes” advice to Government on legislation that affects tourism businesses and has been an effective advocate for the industry on a wide range of issues. The Minister is currently setting up a group to reduce regulatory burden on the industry and VisitEngland will be closely involved with this programme.