DVD Concierge Licence

[Paul Want]

Today we have recieved through the post some propaganda from a compnay called Filmbank who are "representing more than 21 Hollywood studios....". In a nut shell as from 1st May, if you allow guests use of the DVD player in their room and the DVD's are supplied by you, then you are expected to pay a fee of £55.20 per room per year for the privilage.
Has anyone else had the same communication. Along with the PRS it seems that enjoyment now comes with a big cost.http://

[imported_Joanna]

Why would it be scam? PRS is for music. I always thought Filmbank was the equivalent to PRS when it comes to film licensing. I don't believe it is something new from May this year.
I learned about the Filmbank last year as I was researching licensing in order to provide guests with films in their rooms and in lounge areas. You can obviously not show movies without paying licensing fees anymore than you can play music and have tv in guest rooms for free.

[Paul Want]

No, this is for real.
Would suggest that we all write to these people expressing that as an industry we do not have the money to fund the life styles of the Beverly Hills set.
Where did they dream up the sum of £55.00 from?

[Moderator]

Information on the DVD Concierge Licence scheme, and details of costs and how to get a licence, can be found in the licences section (http://www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk/legis.aspx?title=Licences) of this website.

A short news item can also be found on the site here (http://www.accommodationknowhow.co.uk/newsitem.aspx?title=DVD+Concierge+Licence).

[Phil & Rick Cumbria]

This is just another tax on our business causing us not to be able to give free DVD's to our guests who expect everything for free, and rendering our outlay of 3K plus ONLY 6 weeks ago on new tv's with dvd units now worthless, thanks EU Directives and money grabbing hollywood.

I've yet to find out if we are allowed to charge our guests for the DVD rental to recover the cost of another piece of paper!!

[greenbarncottages]

We have 3 holiday cottages.
My interpretation of the information I can find is that if we leave a few DVDs in the cottages for guests to use (or indeed videos, except that doesn't concern us as we provide dvd recorder/players rather than VCRs) then we have to pay fifty odd quid per cottage for the privilege.

Do we need a licence of some description if we leave some music CDs for guests??

Digging a little bit deeper into the weasel words, it appears that this "must have or go straight to jail" "licence" covers some films from some companies, not all films from all companies. So presumably if we just leave the DVDs that aren't covered, we don't need this "licence"?

And it gets better! Filmbank require the licensee to notify them of the films in their library every three months (library, as far as I can see, being a catch-all term for whatever films we happen to leave lying around in the cottages.) If the licensee fails to do so, then they will lose their licence. We cycle some of our own personal collection of DVDs through the cottages so is the "library" our collection, which isn't necessarily available to guests at any particular time, or the ones that happen to be in the cottages during the three months reporting period?

So it becomes easy, if somewhat cynical, to believe that Filmbank is in fact the result of a number of organisations hitting on a good wheeze to screw some cash out of a small target group in return for ............er ........... sorry, you've got me there.
Is this really legislation? And if so, and taking for now just the specific example of self catering cottages as an argument, has this legislation been thought through, and is it remotely enforceable? Oh, and what happens if a guest brings their own DVD and leaves it behind? Is a licence now required?

If anyone is interested, I'm starting a similar organisation called Bookshark, and I shall contact all accommodation providers and point out that if they supply books of any description for the use of their guests, whether their guests choose to look at them or not, then they are infringing copyright and must buy a licence from Bookshark. Which will allow them to provide some books. Maybe.

Is there some sort of representative body for we accommodation providers that can take up our case and tell Filmbank some facts of life? I assume that nobody within the Filmbank organisation has ever gone self-catering.........

Until such time as a champion emerges to take on Filmbank, then may I suggest a solution for self-catering providers that should give Filmbank a headache? Tell guests that DVDs are only available for sale, and are not provided as part of the cottage rental. At the end of their stay, guests are free to purchase any of the DVDs, or not. They may wish to check them out during their stay, to ensure they are OK.

I should feel better after that rant, but I don't.

[Simon]

This is nothing more than a cynical revenue raising drive from the film industry. I removed my dvd library from my self-catering cottage complex immediately that I discovered this. £50 per cottage per year is a ridiculous charge and massively out of proportion to the benefit of owning the licence and far out of proportion to the benefit for guests.

I do maintain a lost property box in a common area and I believe that guests occasionally leave things such as DVDs behind.

If we all boycott the scheme then the film studios will see the error of their ways and come up with something appropriate.

[Dartmoor B&B]

what happens if guests use the DVDs given away in newspapers we leave out for them to read ? or use the stash of free ones that everyone seems to collect ? why should we pay for licenses for those when presumably the paper has already paid ? (or not ??) just sounds like a money making scam to me and I don't think we should go for it

[West Country Chic]

I would like an explanation direct from Visit Britain and Visit England- their logo is 'proudly' showing on the 'Filmbank' site as supporters of this initiative. So when was all this agreed, it was kept very quiet. Did they think to consult the businesses within our industry? I suspect not!
And as the previous member said, we will not be lending DVD's to our guests. Will this eventually be extended to the books, jigsaws and games we also kindly lend???? Oh no, I may have given someone another moneymaking idea!!!

[From the moderator:] Neither VisitEngland or VisitBritain is endorsing this service and Filmbank have now removed the VisitEngland and VisitBritain logos from their website.

[WendyK]

I guess that if as a "commercial" business you give your guests a DVD or CD to enjoy whilst in your B&B, like any other business that might offer this we have to pay the copyright. I mean it does say at the begining of every DVD that they are for home use only so whilst not a fan of paying for copyright or indeed paying for anything I can understand the reasoning behind it. I mean if you create something you expect people that use it and in-directly make money out of it to pay for it. I would like to be rewarded for something I created if others used it. It is common sense really. I think Joanna is right Filmbank is the equivalent of PRS for film so if we pay for music why do people think that film is free? BTW where did you all get £55 from I saw on the application form on Filmbanks website that it is £36 or £24 for seasonal B&B's? Am I missing something?

[greenbarncottages]

I am still struggling to get my head round this - call me stupid if you like...........

Like West Country Chic, I'd like some solid information from Visit Britain, particularly as they are supporting the initiative that requires us to pay money to Filmbank for the right to lend our guests some, but not all, DVD's from an undefined list that is subject to change. How many other organisations do we have to pay for the right to lend guests the DVD's that aren't on Filmbank's list? Could Visit Britain identify these for us?

With a brief search I have found another organisation called the Motion Picture Licensing Company, www.mplcuk.com who supply an "Umbrella Licence". Should we be paying them as well? Instead?

It seems to me to be a case of observing "the letter of the law" which does indeed forbid the viewing of a movie outside the private home without a licence. As a hotel, B&B, S/C etc is not a private home, the same "letter of the law" must surely forbid people taking their own DVD's to such places?

Please, please can we have a full and proper explanation of this mess?

[WendyK]

Okay I double checked this, this is complicated. Apparently Filmbank is a well known UK company owned by Warner Brothers and Sony Pictures they handle hotel in room entertainment internationally for a great number of studios including their owners for the last 25 years.

This other company The Motion Picture Company is a US company who started operating in the UK a few years ago and do not handle licensing in hotels or any other guest accomodation they seem to be much smaller and independent (they are not tied to any studio let alone two) and mainly deal with churches. This situation seems similar to the PRS and PPL thing each company has certain sectors and rights they deal with.

Filmbank handles guest accomodation they have a whole section on their website www.filmbank.co.uk called Hotelvision which is Video on Demand in chain hotels like Hilton and they have the DVD Concierge for DVD mainly aimed at boutiques hotels, B&B and guesthouses. I called them 0207 984 5954 for those interested they were very helpful and they mentioned they should be updating their studio list to add Disney, Pixar, Touchstone, Miramax, Icon and 20th Century Fox soon. So it looks like they will have all mainstream Hollywood included in this licence like they have for the video on demand systems.

As Filmbank ask for reporting forms to be send to them twice a year with the titles of DVDs we have for our guests to watch I will just add all the DVds I have on our shelves and leave it up to Filmbank to sort it out. I mean that is what I will be paying for as far as I am concerned for them to sort this.

Anyway I would call Filmbank if you have any questions, they seem to know what they are talking about and I think Visit Britain just wants to be law abiding they do not necesarily like it or have the answers we are all looking for.

[Pam Foden - VisitEngland]

Filmbank is just one organisation that issues licences to businesses and represents ten studios, including Sony Pictures and Warner Brothers. A licence purchased from Filmbank would enable an accommodation business to lend out films to guests without contravening any copyright legislation, provided the films were produced by one of the ten studios that are working with Filmbank. The fees payable are for the licence only and accommodation providers would continue to purchase DVDs as usual. The licence fees quoted for Guest Accommodation apply when no charge is made to the guest. If a charge is levied, as in most hotels, then a higher licence fee applies.

VisitEngland was approached by Filmbank who wanted to promote the launch of their 'DVD Concierge Licence' for guest accommodation and they subsequently booked an insert in the July edition of the Quality edge magazine. VisitEngland also encouraged Filmbank to offer a lower fee for accommodation businesses that were only open seasonally, which they did then offer.

Neither VisitEngland nor VisitBritain is endorsing this service and Filmbank have now removed the VisitBritain and VisitEngland logos from their website. Businesses may wish to look at other companies offering a similar service and compare the prices. The Motion Picture Licensing Company (www.mplcuk.com) states on its websites that it represents more than 370 producers and distributors.

Smaller businesses may choose to avoid the purchase of a licence by removing DVDs, as VisitEngland understands that a guest may bring their own DVD into a bedroom or holiday cottage and play it on a DVD player provided by the business owner. No licence fee is payable in this case.

Pam Foden
Operations and Industry Engagement Manager
VisitEngland

[greenbarncottages]

Many thanks to WendyK for investigating the differences between Filmbank and the Motion Picture Company, and to the Mods for the responses and clearing up the issue of endorsement by VB and VE.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Sharpe. I might consider paying the licence fee for our 3 cottages, if it was all-encompassing and that was the end of it. However, I don't need the hassle of creating and maintaining a catalogue of our personal collection of something like 400 DVDs, the hassle of determining which of those I can legally place in the cottages, and the hassle of filing quarterly reports. I would also have to sort the titles that are not UK sourced, as I have some R1 versions of major movies because the R2 version doesn't have subtitles, which are essential to me as I have damaged hearing.

I've now removed from our advertising any mention of providing DVDs as a service to our guests, and I'm working on preparing notices to ask guests to let us know if they find any DVDs in the cottages, which will have been left behind by previous guests and will need returning to their rightful owners.

There remains one point which intrigues me, and I'd love to know if anyone has the answer: having purchased a DVD, which is sold for viewing in a private home, is a guest entitled to bring it with them and watch it any form of holiday accommodation? It appears to me that the answer is a firm no, so are we in any way liable if we are providing the means - ie a DVD or VHS player - for guests to break the licensing laws? Ouch!

[greenbarncottages]

Due no doubt to being in Cumbria, which has strange timewarps, I actually sent my previous post before Pam Foden's hit my screen, so thanks to her for some answers.
I realise this could run and run, and don't want to be responsible for that, but could I just put my previous question differently, in the hope that there is a definitive answer?

Pam states:
VisitEngland understands that a guest may bring their own DVD into a bedroom or holiday cottage and play it on a DVD player provided by the business owner. No licence fee is payable in this case.


Can I ask what VE's understanding is based on? The issue seems to me that Filmbank et al are applying the letter of the licensing law that states that a DVD is sold with the right to watch it in a private home, not in a public place.
Given that none of us is making a charge to our guests explicitly for the provision of DVDs, any more than we charge for pictures on the walls, to require the payment of the Concierge Fee a holiday cottage, B&B or whatever is defined as not being a private home.
Hence if it is not a private home, a guest may not bring their own DVDs to watch without infringing the terms of the licence.
Alternatively, if a guest may bring their own DVDs without infringing the licence conditions, then the accommodation cannot be a public place, and the Concierge Licence is not required.

That's the bit that confuses me...... :-s ](*,) ](*,)

[_Sharpe]

I don't have an answer to your question, greenbarn but I can't imagine any circumstance where they could prove that you watched a DVD, that you brought from home, in the accommodation. And then they would have to take you to court as this is a civil matter and not a criminal offence.

And like you, when I saw the amount of paperwork that FilmBank demands that you must do in order to pay them a considerable amount of money, I just shook my head. I'm not sure that they have thought this all the way through.

[WendyK]

Apparently Filmbank ask for reporting forms so that they can calculate how the revenues collected can be distributed back to those that own the rights, how else are they going to know who receives the money? They do not keep it it goes back to film makers and people that work in the industry including set designers, assistants of what ever and talent.

Filmbank also said that they actually have rights to 1000s of producers who all work for a studio. It depends on how you look at who owns rights Filmbank mention on their site studios they represent (they actually said that the list of producers would be too long to add) who in turn have many many producers on their roster and MPLC mentions their producers as well. When i look at the back of my DVDs there are always loads of producers mentioned and one studio. I guess it depends on how you look at it. Volume (producers) vs size (studios).

That said they were looking into explaining on how the legality is handled when it comes to bringing own DVDs (the ones that guests bring) and DVDs we would let guests borrow. They said it would be added to their website for clarity.

Pfff complicated!

[greenbarncottages]

I hope I've now removed any mention of providing DVDs for the use of guests from all the places we advertise, but I can't be sure, so I'm still lying awake at night 8-[ waiting for the sound of approaching helicopters that will herald the arrival in this otherwise idyllic place of the SWAT (Sony Warner Against Tourism) team. I do hope our guests won't be too traumatised as the SWAT team blow the b****y doors off (am I allowed to say that? It's part of a line from The Italian Job. I hope I'm not infringing copyright - is this forum public??) and forcefully invade their privacy whilst ransacking the cottage for illicit DVDs. It has the makings of a scene from a Jerry Bruckheimer production...... (thinks: it would be made on my private property, so would I be entitled to any of the royalties? Hmmm.)

For any number of reasons, Filmbank need to go away, lie down, and have a think. The system they are attempting to force upon us is unworkable, unenforceable and unnecessary.

Unworkable? A couple of points from many: the reporting form requires us to
complete and return a copy of this form every three months, indicating which films have been screened under your DVD Concierge Licence in the preceding three months.
How do I know which films have been screened unless I ask my guests to fill in a form informing me? (That should add to their holiday experience.) Over a period of three months there might have been a hundred different titles in the cottages, so which ones do I list?
Filmbank also require that the form be sent to them by Fax - no other options given, just the Fax. (Uh-oh, that's a line from one of the Die Hard movies - I could be getting into real poo here.)
What is a Fax Machine? Anyone remember?

Unenforceable? Maybe, but see earlier comment re SWAT team...... Guns. Lots of Guns. (The Matrix.)

Unnecessary? The products they licence are for private home use only, and Filmbank are to be applauded for seeking to look after the interests of those they represent, that's their job. I have no idea what the legal definition of a private home is, but for the purposes of licensing it's really down to how Filmbank choose to define it, whatever that may be.

they were looking into explaining on how the legality is handled when it comes to bringing own DVDs (the ones that guests bring) and DVDs we would let guests borrow. They said it would be added to their website for clarity.
That one should give them a well-deserved headache, but they might find the following, which has certain parallels, to be useful in determining what a private home could be:
Residents watching films in their own private accommodation within a care or nursing home do not require a licence.
Filmbank shouldn't have too much difficulty with that statement, it's one of theirs. (Notice it says private accommodation? Don't think that's the word on the licence....)

Filmbank would have done well to avoid embarrassing themselves by thinking the whole thing through before they made us an offer we couldn't refuse. (That's a line from The Godfather, but that's not one of Filmbank's titles, so I don't know where I stand. #-o ) However, they can recover the situation by a simple process of accepting a definition of a rented holiday let as private accommodation , drop the whole half-baked idea, leave us all alone, and show Sense and Sensibility (which is one of theirs.)

[Der Alte Fritz]

FilmBank have been promoting their services through the Bed and Breakfast Association as well and they reliably inform me that the prices were set at these quite high levels because they had to reflect the high prices paid by hotel chains such as Hilton for their 'buy a movie from your room tv set and pay £5' service.

For us the issues are
a) the high price - £330 for the right to LEND a DVD
b) the admin - reporting every three months!
c) the small gain to us. We lend out maybe a DVD a week, so that works out at £6 a throw which is a significant part of our room let cost of £75 (less vat £65) ie 10% of our income for that room.
d) The fact that this license only covers SOME DVDs - not those by the BBC, ITV etc. So we may have to pay another agency for the right to use those.

Like many other we are simply withdrawing this service from our place.

[imported_Joanna]

You don't have to use the services of Filmbank to legally provide films for your guests. All you have to do is to buy licensed copies of the films that can be screened by the public. Contact the distributor of each of the film you wish to make available to your guests. Pay a few hundred pounds for each film and sit back and count your losses.

Of course, guests can view their own films in their rented accommodation just as they can open and drink their own bottle of wine or play card for money.

[The Wayside]

I agree with various other comments that this just seems like another way of extracting money from a small business. I run a very small B & B (only 2 rooms) and only started offering DVDs as the VB inspector recommended it. In the last 2 years I have only had 2 requests to borrow a DVD so paying £55 per room makes no sense at all. I could go out and buy my guests a selection of DVDs as a gift and it would still cost me less than the licence. Needless to say I have now discontinued this service.

[denny (member)]

I guess that if as a "commercial" business you give your guests a DVD or CD to enjoy whilst in your B&B, like any other business that might offer this we have to pay the copyright. I mean it does say at the begining of every DVD that they are for home use only so whilst not a fan of paying for copyright or indeed paying for anything I can understand the reasoning behind it. I mean if you create something you expect people that use it and in-directly make money out of it to pay for it. I would like to be rewarded for something I created if others used it. It is common sense really. I think Joanna is right Filmbank is the equivalent of PRS for film so if we pay for music why do people think that film is free? BTW where did you all get £55 from I saw on the application form on Filmbanks website that it is £36 or £24 for seasonal B&B's? Am I missing something?

I think I must be missing something too, we recieved today the Quality edge magazine "Add More Stars" to your property rating by offering your guests aDVD library service using a DVD Concierge Licence.
Alison Barham from VisitBritain comments
Visit Britain welcomes the "Add More Stars"
the sheet does say Licence is now only £36 +VAT per room per annum and the seasonal licence (suitable for properties open 8 months or less only £24.00 + VAT
Have we not enough to pay for, now extra to gain more stars, not likley.
Besides, who wants complaints next morning because guests have stayed up all night watching films.

[wortonmiller]

I agree with most of the other comments, a money raising exercise from the small guy’s it most certainly is. We understand that it infringes copyright law but only in the UK could this law be enforced in such a draconian manner.

I don’t want to remove this service so I have a plan. Please let me know what you think.

I am going to sell a used dvd from my dvd collection for, say, £10 to any guest that wants to watch it. It is then legally theirs and they can watch it in their room or anywhere else they want. They can take it home if they want to, it is theirs and I will provide a bill of sale to say so. I have simply sold a used DVD and there is no law against that (yet).

Then, If the guest wants me to, I will purchase the DVD back from them at, say, £10 at the end of their stay. Again breaking no laws.

Comments? Will this work? If not why not?

[Windy]

I wonder if we should just provide VCRs as this licence self evidently (from its name) only applies to DVDs. Yes it IS that stupid isn't it.

[imported_Joanna]

No offering VCRs just mean you are going to have to find another way to legally show films because:

Screening films without a licence is an infringement of copyright law. It is a civil, and in some cases, criminal offence to show a film in this manner without the permission of the copyright owner (the film studios) or their representatives (the licensing bodies).

[Briarscourt]

We've removed all mention of DVD availability from our room brochures, and sadly have removed our nice harmless DVD collection from the hall, which is a shame. Over the last few years I have bought low price child DVDs specially for visitors to keep young children happy on a wet evening. We also have plenty of films without sex, violence or foul language - have you stayed in a chain hotel lately, and checked what films they offer for hire. It makes one's hair stand on end.

What about the free DVDs you get from newspapers? Are they also included? Most of the UK must have them.

Visit Britain must adjust their advice for improving service to guests - this one does not make financial sense.

[Chester Canalside]

Just a thought but we bought our DVDs second hand from the local Block Buster shop, wouldnt these have a Public Viewing Licence already paid on them, ie be "licensed copies of the films that can be screened by the public".

So would we still need a Concierge Licence?

[greenbarncottages]

Just a thought but we bought our DVDs second hand from the local Block Buster shop, wouldnt these have a Public Viewing Licence already paid on them, ie be "licensed copies of the films that can be screened by the public".

So would we still need a Concierge Licence?

Afraid so, unless they sold you the licence as well.......

Some time back, in an effort to understand all the implications, I contacted FACT (the body who actually police copyright issues) to get some clarification.
They stated that a licence was also a requirement if a guest brought their own DVDs to watch on your equipment.

I also contacted MPLC to see what sort of licencing they could offer, and theirs came in at fifteen quid, but for a rather more limited range of titles. I pointed this out to Filmbank, but they replied that they (Filmbank) had the sole rights to issue this type of licence. MPLC were somewhat surprised to discover what Filmbank believed their position to be (incorrectly, as far as MPLC were concerned). Soon after that I lost the will to live.](*,) ](*,)

[Der Alte Fritz]

Do you want to know what is the really kafka-esque part of all of this?
The film industry is going more into licensing because they are losing such huge amounts of revenue to illegal downloading off the internet. Some films have been downloaded millions of times before the film even reaches the cinemas. So they have a point.

But we are the people who are buying legal copies at full price from the shops!

So the result of this license has been to stop my purchase of legal copies of DVDs (we do not have time to watch them more than once so instead get them from I Love Film) since we cannot let guests watch them after we have used them.

Result even less revenue to the film industry.

I am happy to pay for a license but it has to bear some relation to the use I get from it. Lending 1 or 2 DVDs a week equals about 100 a year. My license would cost me £550 a year and as a previous poster remarked, it would be cheaper to give the DVD to the guest to take home and watch.

On our copy of the leaflet, it definitely says £55 per room and with our ten rooms that gets expensive. If I have to do the reporting, why cannot I tell them how many I have lent out and then I will pay them the 50p a DVD it is actually worth to me.

[greenbarncottages]

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the licence offered by MPLC at fifteen quid required no reporting - and as has been discussed here and elsewhere for those of us in self-catering who used to simply rotate some of our own DVDs through the properties, reporting was a nonsense and a massive burden.

Oh, and sorry - but even if you do give the DVD's to your guests, you still need the licence if they're going to watch them on your equipment, on your premises, according to the Federation Against Copyright Theft (FACT) who police this, and who in reality have much bigger fish to fry but are telling it like it is.

[Windy]

"Result even less revenue to the film industry."

Yes - ludicrous isn't. I stopped buying DVDs too as a result of this.

What is the law regarding providing an HD recorder onto which you have recorded films off free to air TV? Would they be exempt from this licence?

[kendalcottages]

It does all seem a nonsense. I feel fortunate that our property is just around the corner from a DVD rental shop so we are just advising guests that, if they leave a refundable £20 deposit with them during their stay, they can hire DVDs from the shop as and when they please. Should work for us, and might help a small handful of you in similar circumstances, but probably won't work for the majority.

[greenbarncottages]

The video rental shop seems like a good plan, but unfortunately doesn't get away from the problem - in fact it compounds it. You still need a licence if guests are viewing their own bought or rented DVD's in your premises on your equipment, and you'll need to know the title to see if it's covered by the licence.

I believe this is contrary to the information still given out by VB, but when last year I contacted FACT, who know about this sort of thing (as opposed to Filmbank, who apparently don't), that was what they said. I tried contacting VB for clarification with the information and source, but never heard back from them, whereupon I gave up.

In the end I reckoned that FACT, who actually police copyright infringement, really aren't the slightest bit interested in the likes of us offering a service to our guests when they're busy tracking down multi-million dollar bootleg operations that directly harm their industry. Could be wrong, though, and it would be nice to have correct and reliable information.

[Windy]

Yes it would be nice if we could get some consistency with VB, FACT, Filmbank Uncle Tom Cobbley and all to tell us the same story. If that happened then there's a chance we might be interested, but while VB are on the one hand telling us we have to have these licences and on the other hand don't seem to agree with what FACT say about them it all seems a bit futile. This just looks like a self inflicted injury by VB at the moment.

[VisitEngland_Feedback_]

You do not need a license to put a DVD player in a property for a guest to play their own DVDs.

If you leave your old DVDs in the property with the player, technically you need a licence. The licence relates to providing copyright material - whether that be hiring (you are in effect doing this by including it in a property that is being hired out) screening or otherwise transmitting it. It does not relate to the provision of equipment on which copyright material can be played.

[greenbarncottages]

You do not need a license to put a DVD player in a property for a guest to play their own DVDs.

If you leave your old DVDs in the property with the player, technically you need a licence. The licence relates to providing copyright material - whether that be hiring (you are in effect doing this by including it in a property that is being hired out) screening or otherwise transmitting it. It does not relate to the provision of equipment on which copyright material can be played

Thanks for that statement.
Could you explain what is meant by "If you leave your old (sic) DVDs in the property with the player, technically you need a licence"? I am under the impression that if a DVD is played in a public place, a licence is required; not "technically", but required; and for the purposes of copyright law self-catering accommodation is regarded as a public place.

"The licence relates to providing copyright material - whether that be hiring (you are in effect doing this by including it in a property that is being hired out) screening or otherwise transmitting it. It does not relate to the provision of equipment on which copyright material can be played".

That may be correct as regards what a licence relates to, inasmuch as I may be able to provide a DVD player without needing a licence, but what is in question is the application of copyright law. You will be familiar with the following FAQ's; for the benefit of others they can be found on the website of MPLC UK.

Q. We are not open to the general public. Do we still need a licence?
A. Yes. Any location outside of the home is considered public for copyright purposes and requires a licence.
Q. We own the Video/DVD, do we still need a licence to view or show it in public?
A. Yes. The location requires a licence regardless of who owns the DVD. While you may own the actual DVD, you are only granted the right to view it in your home


So if a DVD is played in a public place a licence is required. Agreed? You are telling us that if a guest brings their own material and plays it in a public place, ie my self-catering accommodation, this doesn't infringe the copyright act. Could you state the source of that information, and the extent to which you can back that up if a case came to court, as it directly contradicts the information I received, and forwarded last year to VB, from the Federation Against Copyright Theft (FACT). It also contradicts the answer given above ie "THE LOCATION REQUIRES A LICENCE REGARDLESS OF WHO OWNS THE DVD". If either the copyright law, or FACT's interpretation of that law, has changed in the meantime, it is important to know this. Otherwise, self-catering accommodation is still NOT regarded as a "home environment", and is regarded - questionable and bizarre as it may seem - as a "public place". I would love to see a statement that that is incorrect, with a solid basis for such a statement.

Please do not quote Filmbank as your source of information; they are in the business of selling licences to enable people to comply, in some specific circumstances, with some aspects of copyright law as it affects some, but not all, of the material they may choose to provide or which guests might choose to bring. Filmbank do not create, nor police, copyright law, and there is no reason to believe that their understanding of copyright law need be in depth or accurate for their trading purposes.

Does VB believe that the defence of "well, VB said it was okay, so I did it" would stand up in court? Or would VB like to get an absolutely definitive answer from FACT and tell us the reality so that we actually know where we stand?

We all know that the situation seems ridiculous and unworkable, but that doesn't justify continuing to provide information as a statement of fact, when that information can be shown to be at best questionable, and at worst misleading. If the situation is indeed ridiculous, then we look to VB to be the agent of change in that situation, rather than throwing us unsubstantiated sops. Let's face it - this started over a year ago; don't you think we've outgrown sops?

[Windy]

Thnak you Greenbarn for putting the issue so clearly as usual.

Now, VB can we plesae have a definitive answer along with some clarification as to how you intend to fight our corner by getting a fair and workable scheme in operation in the UK rather than your just acting as salesmen for this unworkable and incomplete Filmbank scheme?

[VisitEngland_Feedback_]

We recognise that the law relating to providing and showing copyright material is complex and the licensing system for showing copyright material is far from perfect. However, Visit Britain has been in contact with the Federation Against Copyright Theft (FACT) on a number of occasions and has repeatedly been assured that no licence is required if visitors bring their own DVDs to a self catering property. Unless we receive contrary advice from FACT, then this has to remain our advice to Accommodation Know-How subscribers

[greenbarncottages]

Thank you for a clear statement regarding your correspondence with FACT. It is obvious that their representative who advised me at the time was misinformed, or misinterpreting the law, which is good news.